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Dan Slagle  00:00

I think it just comes down to like this decision, as you've said, like it doesn't purely need to be based on a spreadsheet. It should not be based on a spreadsheet at the end of the day.

Natalie Slagle  00:12

It really shouldn't. I like how you were like Natalie. Please don't assess our relationship publicly on this podcast right now.

Dan Slagle  00:19

I'm sure you would say nothing but great things, but I just I don't know what you'd say, and I don't want listeners to be like, "Dang, we can have that conversation

Natalie Slagle  00:27

tonight, mr. Slagle. Welcome to Money Dates, the podcast that makes money conversations with your partner feel a little less taboo. I'm Natalie Slagle, a certified financial planner, and I'm joined by my husband and business partner Dan Slagle, also a certified financial planner. Say hi, Dan.

Dan Slagle  00:49

Hello.

Natalie Slagle  00:50

In each episode, we'll share honest stories and practical tips to help you and your partner feel more connected and confident on your financial journey. So grab your drink, get comfortable, and join us for our money dates.

Dan Slagle  01:04

It's another beautiful smoky day here in Portland, Oregon, Natalie.

Natalie Slagle  01:08

It's getting better though. Soon we will not be trapped inside with our toddler.

Dan Slagle  01:14

Yeah, it's a little disappointing because over the last two weeks, our daughter has had swimming lessons only for like, what is it, 30 minutes a day, like in in the afternoon, but the air quality has been so poor here the last few days, where we just have not felt comfortable taking her to swim lessons, and I feel so bad because of how much she loves the pool.

Natalie Slagle  01:36

Which now today it's supposed to be better air quality. So are we taking her to swim lessons?

Dan Slagle  01:42

We didn't talk about that.

Natalie Slagle  01:44

I know. I love how we have to use our podcast in order for us to get on the same page, and it's just the reality of raising a young child, right?

Dan Slagle  01:53

Wow! Use

Natalie Slagle  01:53

work time or podcast time to get on the same page with your partner.

Dan Slagle  01:59

Yeah.

Natalie Slagle  01:59

Whoops.

Dan Slagle  02:00

Whatever works, that's what works for for our family, and whatever works for your family. Hopefully, you have a good system figured out. Also, I I just wanted to to mention those who are watching. You you may see my my shirt. I remember, so I got this shirt in Barcelona on our honeymoon, which the shirt is almost 10 years old. Like, is that okay to say out

Natalie Slagle  02:22

loud? I have always loved that shirt. You look phenomenal in purple, and it has a cool orange button. I didn't realize it was that. It's not.

Dan Slagle  02:31

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do not discredit this button. So this is an FC Barcelona. I'm not sure. I said

Natalie Slagle  02:37

it was a cool orange button.

Dan Slagle  02:40

It's orange. It is more than a cool orange button. The button is actually for those of you watching. It is yellow and where is my button? It's right here. Yellow and red. So the red stripes. So if you know Barcelona, this is not orange. This is part of the colors of the Catalan flag.

Natalie Slagle  03:01

That's why I was getting ridiculed. Okay, sorry. Okay, can we move on from your button?

Dan Slagle  03:08

Well, I wanted to no. Let's go back to our button. So I bought this shirt in Barcelona. Gosh, 10 years ago. Which again, I don't know if that's okay to say out loud, but I'm saying it anyways. And it was on our honeymoon, and you and I on september 2. So before this podcast actually goes live, we'll have celebrated our 10 year wedding anniversary. So congratulations, we made it.

Natalie Slagle  03:32

We did it. I remember we just celebrated a client's 20 year wedding anniversary, and I'm like, that's so amazing. And we get to celebrate our our own 10 year anniversary. And it's funny you bring up your shirt. The shirt I'm wearing, I love this shirt so much. I've probably had it for. I was thinking about it this morning. I've had this shirt for like six years, and I bought it from Goodwill. But it's a Lands End all organic button up, and I just I can't get rid of it, and you know what? So cheers to us, Dan. 10 years of marriage, and to 10 years of old clothes that we love. Yay, go us!

Dan Slagle  04:11

Maybe the the 10 year. You know how every anniversary is supposed to be like a certain gift, right? Like of wood or silver. Maybe the 10 year for you and I are just like a new shirt

Natalie Slagle  04:23

that isn't from Goodwill.

Dan Slagle  04:25

Yeah, just like you earned it. You held the shirt for 10 years. You deserve to buy a new one. Okay. Anyways, happy anniversary.

Natalie Slagle  04:34

Thank you.

Dan Slagle  04:34

Anyways, let's get into this and somewhat leading into what we've talked about with our daughter and in swim lessons, and then also us being married for 10 years now. I want to talk today, just more off the cuff, about having a second child with you. And as you mentioned, like the only way to have these types of conversations are to make a podcast episode about it. So I. Want to get into it with you today on pros and cons, reasons, fears of having a second child.

Natalie Slagle  05:07

Yes, and for those of you who have listened regularly to our podcast, I brought this up on one or two episodes, and I was like, we need to have a whole episode dedicated to a couple talking. I mean, yes, about all the things that another child brings, but kind of the financial aspect as well. And I actually had a friend specifically say because she's in the same boat. Actually, this friend suggested this a while ago, and now she's pregnant, which is amazing. But she was like, "I want to hear you guys talk about the financial decisions behind having more than one child, so this is very, very much a self-fulfilling episode. So I can have this conversation with Dan, but I know there's people out there that are thinking this too. Should we have more kids? What is the financial impact? What should we be thinking about? And so for those who are interested in either just our own, how Dan and I are gonna make this decision, and for those who are thinking about it for themselves, I hope you enjoy the conversation today.

Dan Slagle  06:12

I think people who will resonate with this episode will enjoy this conversation, just to hear how you and I walk through it together live, live, even though this is technically recorded, just like anything with any financial decision, before we get into the financial reality or the numbers and that part of the conversation, I always like to start off with the emotional side. So let me ask you this question: Why does it feel potentially different the second time around with having a child for you?

Natalie Slagle  06:46

It feels different for me because I feel like the first time when you're trying to have a kid, there's the whole: Are we even capable of getting pregnant? Because the answer could be no. Maybe we never have a kid. Now we know we're capable of of getting pregnant, and now we know what the costs are. We obviously did some assumptions, as everybody does, on like daycare, and but you know, it's like, man, those fricking diapers add up. And I'm was really late to the game on Costco diapers; those are so much cheaper and just as good. But anyways, it's just like now you know so much, and the unknowns was kind of fun, you know. That was like, well, we'll just see if this happens, and we'll make it work. But now we're like, well, we know exactly what's going to happen, and like how the finances play out. So there, even though you know, there's still like a weird level of, I don't want to say anxiety, but there's still some stress here. Why does it feel different for you?

Dan Slagle  07:46

It feels different for me because I have experienced at least up to two years up to this point of what it's like raising a child, and I know every kid is different. And I look back at over the past two years of what you and I have-no, I was going to say have been through, but that means like that almost gives it like a negative sense. Everything that you you and I have learned over the last two years, and some of the difficulties we've had to go through, like our daughter was super colicky, and she has allergies that probably led to some of that colickyness, I'll call it, and we just didn't know, right? So, like thinking about it the second time through, it would like I think things would click a little better. Of like, oh, this is going on. Maybe this could be an issue. To what you're what you talked about is like the first time, you just have no idea, and you described it. I think you said it was it was fun. No, that was no stress. What are you talking about? The

Natalie Slagle  08:48

unknown and like being excited to have a kid. The newborn phase is. I would not use the word fun to describe that. It was precious. It was unbelievable. It was, but like before, the kid, the whole unknown of the child itself was like a fun, exciting thing. Newborn phase for us was was a trial in many different ways because our daughter was likely facing some really bad stomach issues because of allergies that we found out later on, and that was that was hard as a first-time parent. I think if the tables were turned, and because there's the old like hail of you have one difficult baby, and then they're going to be your easy older kid, and then the next time you have a kid, you're going to have the easiest baby, but they're going to be your difficult kid, like you know whatever it is, and I think if we had the more colicky child the second time, we would have been so more like our mindsets would have been better, our anticipation would have been better. Now I'm like, well, the second kid, I I feel like the. Baby stage will be easy, regardless if they're colicky or allergy. Like it's like, oh, we've done this before; it's no problem, whatever.

Dan Slagle  10:10

Yeah, and then that also leads into a little tension, right? Of like, we survived it once versus like, do we want to do it again? Do we want to go through it again? Like, I feel like I'm just getting caught up on sleep, like now, over the last two years. No, like do I want to sacrifice? No, our daughter

Natalie Slagle  10:27

has been an excellent sleeper. We just have more interruptions every now and then, but she that has been a big win for her. She has been, I will gladly brag about having a very well, she was sleeping through the night really young, but that was because she was so colicky, and we're like, this baby's got to sleep, otherwise it's just crying. Anyways, we're being very fixated on a very small amount of time, right? Like the hard phase was only six months of our life, and so a lot of this decision. And I, I don't have any like hard stats on this, but there was something that came up when I was preparing for this topic on how, again, there's no stats, but it was like it kind of just was like more people tend to regret not having children, then, and I'm not saying being a parent versus not being a parent, but not having more children than regretting having more children. Does that make sense? And I'm like, this is the hard phase, and I'm such a futuristic that I'm like, there. I know there's going to be a point in my life where I'm going to be so happy for the little Dan and Natalie's running around, and I just like to me, I'm just like, what's another six months of hardship in a life of 90 plus years?

Dan Slagle  11:53

Yeah, that's a good point. I think there's a few other questions or things to consider in in this this conversation outside again of the finances, but you know the ones that come up for me is like the age gap. Is the age gap ideally what we want between where our daughter is going to be and if we had a child, say a year from today? You know that would make our our daughter three, four. Help me out with the matter. Three,

Natalie Slagle  12:18

three.

Dan Slagle  12:19

So she would be three. Baby would be zero, so like a three-year age difference. I feel like that's a pretty appropriate gap. Like that's pretty similar to what you you have in your family, right?

Natalie Slagle  12:30

Well, my brother and I are seven years apart. My sister and I are two and a half years apart. So I think they're yeah they're like a little over four years apart. I think my brother was a baby hard child, and I think my parents were like, "We need some breathing room. At least that's what I had been told. Sorry, bro, if you're listening to this,

Dan Slagle  12:48

I thought you were gonna say he was a. I thought you were gonna say I think my brother. I think he was a an oopsie baby. Anyway, sorry, they wanted kids.

Natalie Slagle  12:56

They wanted kids, and I was apparently the best baby. My parents both tell me how I was the best baby, and I'm like, of course, mom and dad, that's still the case. Anyways,

Dan Slagle  13:08

okay, but hold on, let me say this. Then you were the third kid. Like, were you the best baby because you were actually the best baby, or were you the best baby because they had already gone through it two times?

Natalie Slagle  13:18

I think there's a lot to say with that, because my mom, when she visited us for the first time, I will quote her. She said, "I didn't know how bad you have it, meaning like how much our baby was crying, and I was like, "Oh, this isn't normal. Like there was a time in my like right after within the first three months postpartum, I was like, I would get offended if people were like, "I think you have a colicky baby, and I'd be like, "Don't label her. Don't say that. Like, she's not colicky. She's just expressing herself in a different way than the rest of the babies. And I was so defensive. And then when my mom came and was like, "This is different, and I was-I just remember breaking down and being like, "Okay, yeah, it's been a little hard, but anyways, like.

Dan Slagle  14:08

So we have the age gap as part of the consideration. I think the other big one that comes up is support system, right? Like for you and I, none of our family is here. We have built an amazing like community, friends. A lot of that comes from even just friends of our daughter and their parents through daycare. But you know, those are things we have to consider as well, like support system. Like, are we going to need to? It would be nice if like grandma and grandpa were were nearby and we could just drop the kids off, and you and I could have more time. What you and I have had to do in order to get that time together, is hire a babysitter, right? So that that leads into some financial aspect of this conversation. Of like you and I, for example, went out to the movies last Thursday. We coined Thursday as our date night every other Thursday at least to start. And you and I went out to the movies. You know, you probably. Spend $80 or so, and then you know you have a babysitter watch your kid for well. We saw the Odyssey, so it was like four hours. You know, so that's an $80 night for just you and I turns into $160 night total, based on what we pay our babysitter per hour. So you know that would be something that you and I would have to do more frequently if we were to have a second child.

Natalie Slagle  15:23

Do more babysitting?

Dan Slagle  15:25

Yeah.

Natalie Slagle  15:26

Well, I don't know if it would be more because it would just be us still going out every other Thursday. I guess it's more from $1 perspective. I mean, most people don't double their babysitter though. At least it's not bad. It's like, okay, I'll give you 510, bucks more because we got two kids now.

Dan Slagle  15:42

There are going to be some instances where it's like we have to take our our daughter out to like an event or something, and we don't want to bring the newborn with.

Natalie Slagle  15:51

Yeah.

Dan Slagle  15:51

So like, there's going to be times where it's like, okay, you got to come watch newborn, or you got to come watch our daughter, or you have to come watch both. Right. So just costs costs start to add. Yeah, yeah.

Natalie Slagle  16:01

I will go back to the support system though, because when I think about us compared to our Minnesota friends, a lot of our Minnesota people have family nearby. What I have also learned is not all of our Minnesota friends want their family to watch their kid for whatever reason, and there could be like health reasons, there could be very valid reasons. I don't mean to. It could just be valid reasons. And so, one thing that not having family nearby has forced us to do is lean on our friends more. And we have a few families that will gladly and have watched Jay not only like in a pinch or for free, but like overnight for us. And I'm really proud that we have leaned into the fact. Okay, we don't have family. That means we're going to ask our friends and our we're going to help them with their kids and their however we can help. And I think that's the support system is interesting to me because you. I feel like when it's family, you just kind of like sit around and you're like, "Yep, it's there. But when you don't live around family or people who it doesn't need to just like people who naturally you would think could help, you have to make that effort to build those systems, and I think we've done a really good job of that. And I'm really appreciative of the people who have come and helped us quite a bit.

Dan Slagle  17:23

Yeah. So we've talked about age gap support system. I think the other one that comes into play from like a demographic standpoint of having a second child is like career stage as well. You know, I think you and I are in a fortunate position where our business provides for us as opposed to like when we first started our business, right, which we talked about in in the last episode, and what that looked like from a like a personal standpoint. But I think that's something to consider if we're going to have this conversation, is like where we at from a career stage, and then obviously that could have financial implications, like if anything needed to change from a career standpoint.

Natalie Slagle  18:00

I mean, I think going from not being a parent to being a parent, that shift right there, which we have already overcome, really helps you frame like work is work, and my personal life. Like I think it's helped me create that boundary even more, and that impacts my career. Like maybe if we never had kids, I would be working more, and I would probably-I don't want to say care more because obviously I love what I do, I love who we work with, and I care a lot. But there is something that, when you have children, there's only so much time in the day, there's only so much like heart and energy you have to give out into the world, and I think having more kids takes some. You just got to pull some of that time, some of that energy away that would otherwise be going to work. This is also why there's a lot of conversations around the pay gap between not women and men, but mothers and fathers, because there's something that's going on where, when a professional woman has a child, that's when we see a huge pay discrepancy, and I think it's because of the tugs and pulls that motherhood has, and also how does the partner support the new changes that are occurring, and whether that support is there or not? That's a whole nother topic to go down. But I just wanted to point that out. As far as career stage, I think having more kids impacts that one a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more.

Dan Slagle  19:43

I want to now navigate into the financial categories to consider in this conversation, and I've spent some time narrowing down. Like to me, there's seven major categories that need to be discussed from a financial, a financial conversation. With your partner about having potentially a second child, so the big categories for me financially are childcare, housing, income, healthcare costs, call it everyday costs, education savings, and thinking about long term costs.

Natalie Slagle  20:17

That's a lot to unpack.

Dan Slagle  20:19

Those are the big categories, lot to unpack. We can start at the top. Childcare. This is, to me, when even clients bring up this conversation, this is the number one expense that gets really honed in on. Because with your first child, you know how much you're paying, and the assumption is you're going to have to double that payment, which like is true, right? Like I don't think a lot of child cares provide major discounts. No,

Natalie Slagle  20:45

I think the most I've ever heard about is a 10% sibling discount.

Dan Slagle  20:49

So for us, you know, we pay what $1,700 a month.

Natalie Slagle  20:53

18, yeah.

Dan Slagle  20:54

Oh, it went up 18. So we pay $1,800 a month. So now, if we have a second child, we would have to reassess our monthly cash flow and say, where can we find $1,800 for? Like, assuming like all of our other dollars are assigned to expenses or saving or paying down debt, whatever it may be, we need to come up with an additional 1800.

Natalie Slagle  21:18

Yes, absolutely. And shout out to Portland for having preschool for all because for us and this I hate it that this is true but this to me absolutely has a sway on this decision for us to have a second kid because in Portland we have preschool for all and I'm I know the ins and outs in Portland. I don't know the ins and outs all over the U.S. but I know this is happening like quite a bit all over the U.S. Where there's some sort of help for child care. So in Portland, at the age of three, so this would be September 2027 for our daughter. Daycare could be free, and I say could be because there's there's these things. Whatever, I'm not going to get into it here. But if the purpose was this to help families and to entice families to have more children, hey, it's working on in this household because I'm like, wait a second. We wouldn't have almost $4,000 in daycare costs. We would just keep paying what we're used to paying. That's pretty impactful.

Dan Slagle  22:32

And even if we didn't have preschool for all, because it's not a given that we're going to get that right. Like that's just not necessarily going to be the case, so. But even we talked about the age gap, right? So if we had a child and our our our daughter was is three at the time, and we need to pay for childcare, we're probably looking at two additional years of or two years of double costs.

Natalie Slagle  22:56

Yeah, which when you say it that way, I'm like, that's not awful because I know the money is there, and I think this is what people have to do. Where is the money going to come from? And right now, if we're maxing out our 401k's, okay, well we're going to cut that in half, and there's there's the second child care bill. And oh, by the way, we only have to do that for two years. It's not for the rest of our lives. Like that's what I love about financial planning is the best financial plans have a lot of levers to pull when things like this come up. And for us, we have always operated in a way of when something occurs, something comes up, whatever. Do we have levers to pull to adjust to that, and to your point, Dan, if we don't get the preschool for all, the free tuition for kids three and up in Portland, will we be able to afford $4,000 a month in daycare? And I mean, just from a cash flow perspective, I'm not talking about like what is the long term impact, but just from a cash flow perspective, and not changing our life significantly, the answer is yes. Do you feel confident about that answer?

Dan Slagle  24:08

Yeah, I think so. I think just like anything, it's like you find a way to make it work.

Natalie Slagle  24:12

Yep.

Dan Slagle  24:12

We have friends who have four or five kids, and it's like I don't know how the heck you do that, but they find a way. Like you will find a way to make it work at the end of the day, which means you have to sacrifice something. Probably,

Natalie Slagle  24:24

we have a handful of clients with three children and having three childcare payments, whether it's childcare or private school. We have a few clients, and let me tell you, that's not cheap.

Dan Slagle  24:38

All right, so we've talked about childcare costs. Let's let's talk a little bit about housing

Natalie Slagle  24:42

because

Dan Slagle  24:42

I think this is one that actually truly impacts you and I when we think about bringing a second child into this home. Because the main question for me is, do we need a bigger place? Like, do we have enough bedrooms for this? Because, as you may know, one of our offices is in our home. So, is our space big enough?

Natalie Slagle  25:03

I want you to answer that first. Actually,

Dan Slagle  25:06

well, you and I actually had a conversation about this a few nights ago, and we decided that our space, current space, is big enough. So we have three bedrooms. One bedroom serves as a guest room slash home office,

Natalie Slagle  25:19

which is what you're in now,

Dan Slagle  25:21

which is what I'm in in now. Thank you. And then we have our daughter's room, and then our bedroom. So for the first several months of newborn's life, they will likely just be sleeping in our bedroom. So that solves the issue for six. I don't even remember when they transition into their own room, but let's call it the first six months. So we procrastinate. We push the problem up. I like doing things like that. Okay, now we get to the point where the child needs their own room potentially. What are our options? So the option would be we could stick both our kids in the same room, or we could convert this guest room into a bedroom, like a one of their bedrooms, right, which would mean we would have to move our home office potentially, and we would not have a place for guests to stay.

Natalie Slagle  26:09

Yeah,

Dan Slagle  26:11

I know that that last statement I made, not having a place for guests to stay, will drive you, you Natalie Slagle, personally insane. Yeah,

Natalie Slagle  26:21

because I want everybody to stay with me. I just had a friend call me last night, and she's like, "Hey, you know, we're because we're all going out together, and she lives kind of outside of Portland, and she's like, 'Would it be okay if I I sleep over? I I know I do this a lot. I'm like, please, everybody sleep over all the time. It's my dream come true. So, what has a big impact, and I have a a great great friend. Shout out to my friend Jessica, who has inspired me to consider doubling up. You know, like kids do not need their own rooms, but that gets a little trickier when the kids aren't the same sex. Every parent has different decisions to make around that. So I'm definitely all about kicking the can down the road on this one when it comes to housing because I would want to know what the sex of the babe is going to be, to then know okay can these kids be in the same bedroom for a long time or at some point sooner maybe than we want would we have to think about having two rooms and then where do we do our office where do we do our guest room? And it's like these types of things. It's because so much depends. I'm like, oh, this is not a deciding factor because I don't know enough yet. And I'll once I know the details on a, are we having a kid or not? B, what is the sex of the kid? Then I'll come back to this. But it's like the childcare discussion. I know what that like. That's very obvious. It doesn't matter the housing thing. To me, it depends a lot on on the sex of the kid and if we're going to house them in in one room or not.

Dan Slagle  27:53

Okay. Well, let's throw. So the main point of this category was housing, but I'm going to throw an additional expense in that is can somewhat be grouped into the same category, and you and I also talked about this. We went camping last weekend, and our car was jam packed

Dan Slagle  28:09

with things. And you and I brought up like, what happens if we had a second child? Are we going to need a bigger car? Because if we ever go camping as a family, we are not going to be able to bring the gray tote bin with all the cooking supplies. Like, where are the things going to go?

Natalie Slagle  28:26

We need to get a topper. I would get a topper before I get a bigger car.

Dan Slagle  28:31

Okay, that that's your fix. That's

Natalie Slagle  28:32

my fix.

Dan Slagle  28:32

Get a topper. Get

Natalie Slagle  28:33

a trailer. A bigger car is be like another 30 grand out the door, and and I'm saying 30 grand on top of the value of our car too, so having more kids is is certainly a contender of do we need a bigger car? I would do everything I can. I love our I love our rav4. I don't want to get rid of it. It's paid off. I want to do everything I can to avoid that.

Dan Slagle  28:57

Okay. All right. Well, this is helpful. So we talked about childcare, housing. What about income? Like impact on income of having a second child. Like especially from the stance of like if you need to pay double daycare and you can't find ways to cut back on your expenses, like you may potentially need to find a higher paying job, right? Or so that could lead to a job change. Or you may have the thought like I actually want a reduction in my hours, which could lead to some sort of job change. And we've talked about like taking we have a whole episode about that, right? Like taking a step back from work and like how much do you actually need to make to continue on the lifestyle you're you're doing, or even potentially like a career pause. Like those are some pretty big professional decisions to navigate around.

Natalie Slagle  29:43

Yeah, it's kind of what I was talking about before. Is am I going to have the same drive and motivation that I would with having either no children or only one child? And because if I have less, does that mean my career? My job, my money is all of that impacted, and I think going into motherhood, I thought like, there's no way I would ever let that happen. I'm still gonna be me. I'm still gonna be Natalie, the great CFP, and and I'm like, oh, this is why things, like I remember when, like, being postpartum in like month two, and I was like, "Oh, this is why the whole traditional like trad wife thing is a thing. And I'm like, "I just want to stay at home with my baby and never work again. I was like very much contemplating never coming back to work. So there's just to say that there isn't an impact on job and the desire for reduced hours. I think that's it's just how it like impacts things. So I, you know, I also don't want it to come off as like, and this isn't to people. This is to myself. I don't want to come off as like, oh, if you have more kids, that means they're not going to be as professionally successful, whatever that means to you, and maybe the opposite is true. Maybe I can have all the kids I want and have the exact type of career I want as well. Like, why can't both be true? I don't know. Both

Dan Slagle  31:11

can be true. It's ultimately what what you want. Okay, so other financial categories we have healthcare costs. I think that you know that's pretty straightforward, right? In regards to additional costs, everyday costs, right? Like groceries are expensive right now. As a family of three, I can't imagine what that would look like. As a family of four, there's different ways to save. I would think, right? And actually, there's an area in our basement right now that you've just like held on to things from our daughter, just like with the thought that we might have a second child. So I feel like we'd be pretty well equipped because we were like at that phase. We were like very neutral color palette, right?

Natalie Slagle  31:47

There are things all over the house and all these closets. Like I all over the house of well, just in case we have another kid, I'm going to keep these like random bins of clothes and little kid toys that I should have gotten rid of a long time ago, but I'm like, just in case,

Dan Slagle  32:03

just in case, just in case. I want to talk about the next financial category that I actually I feel like has come up a lot in client meetings, and that's in regards to education savings, especially when like the first child has a 529 with a pretty hefty balance, and then the conversation that comes up in in client meetings has been like, especially as the second child is born, it's like looking at the discrepancy in the account balances between baby number one and baby number two because like baby number one, it was in some of these examples, it was like the first kid, the cup, the parents had like a lot of cash on hand or just wanted to like front load the 529 as much as possible and let it grow over the last over the next 18 years. So they like you had a little more financial flexibility before baby number one came, and then you want to just reward baby number one with some of these like future saving mechanisms, and then baby number two comes around and it's like oh we don't have all of those reserves or that flexibility anymore to make a similar contribution. So I think there's a lot of guilt and pressure that I've seen parents put on themselves in terms of like how do we even out like the balances of our kid accounts as much as possible. So that's an interesting one. And and again, with the 529, you can always change the beneficiary, right? So there's there's still some potential benefit from that first 529 that like the second beneficiary, the second kid could benefit from. I always feel like that's really a really interesting conversation that takes place. Yeah, it

Natalie Slagle  33:35

definitely is, and I think for our own situation, I don't think we would be able to front load our second kid's 529 plan at the pace that we did with our daughter, and so that to me tells me any future contributions to 529 plans only go into baby number two until it's more caught up from how we analyze it. Is we don't want it to be dollar for dollar exact. We estimate does the percentage of what we're estimating their college cost does it hit the same percentage? So will our first kid have about 80% or whatever percentage you use? Let's say we use 80% Will the first kid's 529 plan pay 80% of our expected cost, and how do we get kid number two to 80% And it might be, oh, the 80% won't happen until they're 18, but kid number one is enjoying that 80% right now. We just don't need to fund it with any more dollars. So it's just a weird way to go about it when you do the front loading with kid number one and kid number two. There's two daycare payments going on, and not as much cash flow.

Dan Slagle  34:43

Yeah. Okay, Natalie, let's talk next about questions to ask before deciding whether or not to have a second child. So, from a financial standpoint, right? Like, I feel like the questions I would pose are: What's our monthly cash flow margin right now? What's our emergency fund situation, and could we absorb some sort of financial shock if something happened? Are we optimizing our finances for now, or are we building in flexibility for later? What would need to be true for this to feel affordable rather than like survivable? And then, is there a version of this that costs less? So, like, is there a different model of childcare we could look at? Right, like you and I already talked about. You know, hopefully, potentially preschool for all that has a huge financial impact, or potentially like family help. Those are things to to think about as well. We can add these questions to the show notes as well. But if you're in this situation, such as ourselves, like these are really good questions to ask each other, and and also look at the numbers together.

Natalie Slagle  35:51

Yeah, I think you know having more kids, especially if they're in daycare, the cash flow is a really important piece of this. Like how you have to be able to afford it, and if you're already behind, let's say retirement savings or something like that, like, and maybe that's okay because I think building a family is-I just have to say it-like building a family seems much more important than caring about retirement. Probably not the best thing for a financial planner to say, but as a mom, I'm like I just want. If people want more kids, they should have more kids. Who cares about the money? At some point, you need to care about the money, and so you can't go into debt having a second kid. And if childcare would do that, then you have to figure out how can you make everything work. And to your point, Dan, I like is there a version of this that costs less? And this, it could be a parent staying at home, a parent working part time, both people working part time. I don't know, but the finances need to be a part of the conversation. It cannot be ignored, but hopefully, you can make whatever family situation you truly want as a couple work. I love it. The other thing we should briefly talk about is like outside again of the finances because you know that's where my brain likes to go first, first and last. So one thing that you and I would need to work through or or talk about is just the understanding like time and energy costs like our true costs, you know. I don't want to be walking around as a zombie 24/7, which I know like the first few months will be. But

Dan Slagle  37:30

I need you and I both need to make sure we still have time together as a couple, and then time individually as much as possible, right? And take care of ourselves and what could look like having a second child. It's also important to like just better assess. I'm I'm not asking you to do this now. This is my disclaimer, but just better understand like where your relationships at, and like your the bandwidth within your relationship for taking on this next phase of life, and like ultimately to me, what I am gathering from this episode up to this point is, I'm not going to share our our thoughts on like if we're going to try to have a second child or not. Time will tell on that one, but like I think it just comes down to like this decision, as you've said, like it doesn't purely need to be based on a spreadsheet, it should not be based on a spreadsheet. At the end of the day,

Natalie Slagle  38:25

it really shouldn't. I like how you were like, Natalie. Please don't assess our relationship publicly on this podcast right now.

Dan Slagle  38:34

Well, I I'm sure you would say nothing but great things, but I just I don't know what you'd say, and I don't want listeners to be like, dang, we

Natalie Slagle  38:41

can have that conversation tonight, Mister Slegel.

Dan Slagle  38:45

Uh oh, uh oh. Oh yeah. Also, Natalie's been kicking my butt in Cribbage, which we just learned how to play. So there's some competitive nature in our household. Once baby baby number one, our current daughter, goes to bed, then they get things get. I'm gonna say

Natalie Slagle  39:00

this because I'm not going to be able to say this for much longer. Since I have learned to play cribbage over the weekend, which I'm so sorry it took me this long. I feel like I need to say sorry to my Minnesota audience. I have not lost. I have probably played like 10 games, and I have. And this is games just one on one with people. This is games in like against four people. I have not lost. I have also not played one on one with with my teacher, the woman who taught me, and I'm pretty sure she's going to kick my butt when I play her. But if anyone is looking for a cribbage challenge, I'm telling you, I'm here. Meet me at my house post bedtime. I'll put a record on. We will play cribbage, and you will see how great I truly am.

Dan Slagle  39:47

Well, you better keep those cribbage skills current as we navigate potentially having a second child, because potentially you might have to give it up. Sorry.

Natalie Slagle  39:57

Yeah, I really like this conversation. I think it's a really good review of. It doesn't need the spreadsheet doesn't need to be the deciding factor. It should be a part of the conversation, though. And the ultimately, big decisions in life, whatever the big decision is, it has a financial impact. And so, as a couple, just like anything, communication, communication, and so having these types of conversations when you're thinking about kid number two, kid number one, kid number five, it's important to be on the same page going into

Dan Slagle  40:30

it. Cool. Thanks for the conversation, Natalie.

Natalie Slagle  40:32

Thanks, Dan. We'll see you at the cribbage table.

Dan Slagle  40:38

If you've enjoyed this episode and are looking for personalized financial guidance, schedule a free complimentary consultation using the link in the description. Natalie and Dan Slagle are the founding partners of Equal Voices Wealth, a registered investment advisor. The information provided in this podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be considered investment advice or a recommendation to buy or sell any securities. Investing involves risk, including the potential loss of principal. Advisory services are only offered to clients or prospective clients where Equal Voices Wealth and its representatives are properly licensed or exempt from licensure. For more information, including our disclosures, please visit our website at www.equalvoices.co.